In the new installment of Alan Bradley’s beloved mystery series, 12-year-old amateur sleuth Flavia de Luce investigates the murder of a former public hangman to prove her beloved housekeeper innocent of murder. Taking her odious younger cousin along for the ride, she uncovers a secret that brings the greatest shock of her life.
Our editor Olivia Rutigliano spoke to Bradley to talk about writing habits, Louise Penny, adoring one’s characters, Sherlock Holmes, and turning a novel into a series.
This interview has been edited for concision and clarity.
OR: The Flavia de Luce series is my favorite detective series of all time. It had seemed to me like The Golden Tresses of the Dead was the final Flavia novel, so I was thrilled when I learned that What Time the Sexton’s Spade Doth Rust was in the works. Am I correct in this assumption?
And if you had intended on ending Flavia at the ten book mark, was this 11th book a surprise to you just as much as me?
AB: Yes and no. I think, at the beginning, when The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie was being written, I realized that I couldn’t do it all in one book.
And I told the publishers that I thought maybe it would be three books. And they were very encouraging about that, and then it quickly became six books, and then it became nine and ten books. And I’m still not sure where the idea about the other one being the end of the series came from, but at the same time, I was realizing that I needed to take a break to get some other things done. And I had been writing a book a year at that point for almost 10 years, and it was just absolutely a constant commitment to be there all the time, every day writing and to provide a book on time to the publishers.
And I don’t think I ever missed during that time, but I realized that I needed to have a little bit of a time out and do some more. But I knew all the time that Flavia’s story wasn’t finished. I think I knew in book one that she had a very long story to tell and that it would unravel itself if I sat there with a pencil in my hand, that Flavia would fill in whatever I needed.
So I actually took a break for about five years. It began as a year and then it became two years and, like the series became more books, my break became longer. And it finally became five years and the publishers were incredibly encouraging, saying “do go on… we’re happy to see anything that you write.”
And during that time, Flavia never, ever stopped talking to me. She talks all the time, I’ve said before: she wakes me up in the middle of the night and says, “here, write this down.” She’s very imperious and I fully get up and I jot down what it is, and it’s sometimes a phrase, or sometimes a description of somebody’s nose… or a good impression of someone or a smell and I just jot it down on whatever is close by. It could be a Kleenex. It could be the flyleaf of a book or sometimes the back of my hand, if I’m really tired, if I don’t want to get up.
And then I compile all this stuff in a document on the word processor that goes on for dozens and dozens of pages, and it’s just phrases, ideas, comments sort of snarky remarks about things, and I read it over and see if it has anything in common, whether there’s a thread with it, or whether it’s just random things. And then at the same time, I’m thinking about what I would like to write about for the next year. And I think you have to be really committed to do that, because if you decide to do a mystery story about an apple orchard, for example, it’s going to be an enormous amount of research.
About apples and their history and their propagation and their use in poisons, for example. Oh, yes. Very relevant. You know, immediately you’re thinking snow white, snow white. And I sort of assess how much research there’s going to be. And I choose one. That’s challenging, but that I know is going to be really interesting for a year.
And then I dive into it and I start reading just random books that I can dig up, preferably older ones. And the chemistry has to be all pre 1929 because of Uncle Tar, who died in that year. And so I can’t use anything that’s later.
OR: That’s right. That’s such a smart detail… yes. I never thought about that. Of course!
AB: And so I set up my course of reading and then I just wildly forage in these books and dig out curious information on things that appeal to me. And, sometime during that period, an opening paragraph or an opening sentence or setting will come to me, and I can usually write that down fairly quickly, maybe in a couple of hours. And once you get your feet on the ground in Bishop’s Lacey, then the rest of it is sort of a piece of cake.
OR: I love it.
AB: Yeah… just be quiet and listen to Flavia. Don’t interrupt. Don’t inject any of your own ideas. Don’t try to be smart. Don’t try to be funny. Just shut up and listen to Flavia and off she goes. So that’s a long answer to your question.
OR: It’s a wonderful answer and it actually segues into something I wanted to ask… I imagine that any Flavia novel takes quite a bit of research, especially in matters of chemistry. So you did answer that quite a bit. I was wondering if you do research first and build a story or plot point around that? Or if you conceive of the story first and then go back and find out what you need to know?
AB: don’t ever block the story out before I start writing. I’m of the opposite belief that you put the character in the opening setting and then let them go. where they want to take the story. I might have an idea what the overall theme of the book is or the overall, um what would you call it? Sort of the cultural setting? I’ve tried to deal with things that don’t exist anymore: like in the first book, stamp collecting, and in the fourth book, gypsy caravans in the lane.
And in the second book, traveling puppet shows, and so forth. And I really like working on a scene like that of something that interests me. So we’ve had things like church architecture, and of course, chemistry! Chemistry is a constant, and in the recent book, we’ve had a little bit about the history of the hangman, which is fascinating stuff. You could, you could go on about that forever, but you have to, you have to keep it to whatever it is, 300 pages.
So, yeah, I basically know what the setting is in a couple of words, but I don’t try to restrict it. I let the characters dig out. They talk to one another.
OR: That’s wonderful.I wonder, do you have a favorite among the Flavia books, or was there one that was most particularly fun to research and write? And then I have a second, slightly evil question, which is, (and I assume it’s Flavia), but do you have a favorite character? Or if it’s Flavia, do you have a favorite character who’s not Flavia?
AB: Yeah, well, The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie I think has to be my all time favorite because it was the first, and it was the one that won the Dagger Award that set me on this path. The publishers told me it was the most award winning mystery ever.
OR: I believe that. It deserves it.
AB: It won a lot of awards, and, because of that, and because of the sheer amount of research that I did, and also all the experiences I had of traveling and meeting and talking to people during the book launches, traveling all over the US and Canada, and and the UK, and just meeting and talking to people, that has a very, very special place in my heart. I find a lot of readers tell me that too, that Sweetness is their favorite. You know, the other ones are okay, but they’re not the first and I can appreciate that. Funny. I mean, I love Sweetness, but I love Chimney Sweepers Come to Dust. I love Speaking from Among the Bones. I mean… I can’t choose a favorite. I Don’t know. I really love them all. I guess this, I mean, Sweetness I’m indebted to because it introduced, you know, it introduced everything.
OR: Can I tell you something very funny?
AB: Sure.
OR: So, I first discovered the Flavia books when I was working at my local library. I’m 32, and about 8 years ago, I was beginning my PhD, and I was working at my local library–where I had worked since I was 14. Because every summer when I’d come back from college or, you know, throughout the years in high school, my job was just sort of always waiting for me and it was wonderful. So, I was working, and I came across Chimney Sweepers Come to Dust, which is a line from my Shakespeare play, Twelfth Night, and I loved the cover… I love that color blue. And I immediately read the back, I said, “okay, ‘ll start this series.” I went downstairs to find the first book on the fiction shelf, and I passed the small area where patrons could buy books that people had donated. And when I walked by, I saw the Flavia books. Someone had donated the first seven books, and Chimney Sweepers was number eight! They were brand new and they were a dollar each. And so I bought the first seven and I devoured them.
It felt like kismet that the moment I saw the brand spanking new copy of chimney sweepers on the shelf and said, okay, I’m going to go downstairs and see if we have the rest on the shelves. I’ve got to read it. Then I walked downstairs and I saw that they were there ready for me to take home. So I took it as a sign It’s not a great story, but it, but it means a lot to me.
AB: It’s always nice to really, you know, connect with a reader like that, because the Flavia readers are a kind of special breed of people. They’re like family. And I found that because the books are written for people who like the kind of things that I like, that when I actually meet them, it’s as if we’ve known one another all our lives. We can fall into gabbing about… brass hinges on Victorian coffins or something like that. No problem.
OR: All that good stuff. That’s wonderful. I hope to be considered part of this delightful cohort, as a Flavia fan myself. Is there a favorite character of Flavia or non Flavia character?
AB: Yeah, Ilike, Dogger very much. And, I had the great opportunity, just over a week ago, to have an interview with Louise Penny. And although Louise inspired the Flavia series, by my wife hearing her talking on the radio, I had never actually talked to her before. So we corresponded through other people, and I finally got a chance to meet her and chat with her, and we were talking about the characters in the book, and I said that I feel honored to write the scenes with Flavia and Dogger, that they’re very special. For me, and there, there are scenes where I am very conscious of having to be the fly on the wall, but I have to be very, very quiet and just listen to what they’re talking about… resist any urge to dive in or state any of my opinions or steer the conversation because it will destroy the book. I have to just sit absolutely quietly, hardly even breathing, and just listen to what they say and write it down very quietly. And, let them talk as long as they want. It doesn’t matter if they go on for hours.
There’s a strange feeling. It’s almost like a blessing that comes on you when you’re doing that, because these characters are coming from wherever it is that they exist and they’re choosing to carry on a very intimate conversation in front of you, almost as if you were one of them.
And I really appreciate that, and I realize all the time that I mustn’t ever do anything to breach that profound trust that they have in me, because I’m sort of their mouthpiece.
OR: Yes. You’re taking dictation.
AB: I’m taking dictation and I must be accurate and it’s not any place for Alan Bradley to say anything at all.
And I enjoy it because it’s very quiet when Flavia and Dogger talk to one another. The conversation is so loving. It can go anywhere. Quite often does. I never know what they’re going to say. I’m thinking, ‘oh, that’s nice. What a lovely thing to say. I wish I’d thought of that.’ So, yeah, Dogger is probably the character I love writing the most.
Mrs. Mullet is a lot of fun. She comes out with quite outrageous things. Also, I, of course, Daffy, being a book person, is very close to my heart, and I can really identify with her sometimes sour attitude towards people that don’t get books, and I think she’s going to feature a lot in the next book.
Daphne has really been saying a lot of things about books to me.
OR: That’s very exciting.
AB: Well, Ophelia had her book, and so now we’re sort of… we’re very close to a Daphne starring turn.
OR: I’m very excited to hear this.
AB: She’s, she’s a very interesting person. She’s always been sort of second fiddle to Flavia and we only see her reported through Flavia’s eyes. We’ve never actually had Daffy have the ability. It would be interesting to let her tell the story for a while, but I can’t really in the format of the books, in the first person. I think we will continue to see her through Flavia’s eyes, but also now through Undine’s eyes.
OR: Yes!
AB: And Undine has a lot in common with Daffy.
OR: Yes, very much. Undine is such an interesting character, and I like, I like the idea that Flavia sort of has a, has a, a lightly antagonistic sidekick in that, in that regard.
AB: She’s a very good foil for her.
OR:I really enjoyed the development, from, I guess, what, book six? Yeah, bringing her to the forefront of the mystery solving. Yeah. I love that development. She’s very funny. She’s just like, I mean, I’ve said this about Mrs. Mullet, but Undine is such a pip.
AB: Yes, Undine has no filters.
OR: No, absolutely not. You know, if I, if I actually ever sat down and gave a list of my favorite things about the Flavia novels, it would be like 6,000 pages long. But one of my favorites is the titles. I mean, you have such a tremendous knack for finding the very best lines in English poetry and drama and turning them into titles. And I, as a former English major and former English literary scholar, I am a big fan of 17th century graveyard poems, like you often excerpt from.
I love finding out what the next title is going to be and, and which poem it’ll remind me to reread. And I’d love to hear more about you, how you pick the titles. Are they lines from poems you’ve always loved? Or do you when you have a conceit of what the book is about, then you remember, “oh, this Thomas Parnell poem sort of has the right mood?” I mean, you pull from Tennyson and Shakespeare! The allusions are so wonderful. I’d love to learn more about the process.
AB: Yeah, yeah. In the first place, I like Parnell very much because of the vast amount of gruesome detail in it. I’ve used Parnell a couple of times. And Tennyson, of course, but, they’re, the titles are things that leap out at me from, from my reading. And I have, you’ll be happy to know that about a year ago, two years ago, during the break, I was proposing allowing Flavia to write a book of graveyard poetry and I compiled a vast amount of it, and I was reading a vast amount of it. And there’s so much wonderful material there, but the publishers at the time were not really interested in that. And I can kind of understand.
OR: I was wondering if you wanted to talk a bit about Sherlock Holmes and your relationship to that character. I know you wrote a fascinating, study of Sherlock Holmes previously, interrogating him as, you know, in the, “was Watson a woman? fashion.
AB: I’ve been fortunate enough to have read the Sherlock Holmes when I was very young. I had kind of a sickly childhood, and I had an uncle who brought me old English boys annuals like Chums and Boys Own Annual. And they were full of serials about the wilds of Canada, the Northwest Mountain Police and grizzly bears and all that kind of stuff. But at the same time, he also brought me his two volume set of the complete Sherlock Holmes books, and I read those. I became a Holmes fan and over the years. I can still remember where I was in Toronto when I discovered the two volume edition of the Sherlock Holmes annotated by Baron Gould. I mean, heaven!
So, I had a very dear colleague, Dr. Bill Sargent, who was, as Conan Doyle would have said, a world famous geologist. He was, he was like Dr. Challenger. He could have been Dr. Challenger, and he could have played him in a movie. And Bill was a great authority, not only on, Sherlock Holmes and folk singing and geology and many other things. And it was he who phoned me one day and he said, “I couldn’t sleep last night it came to me that Rex Stout was chastised for writing about how Watson was a woman and I’d been thinking about it all night. And it wasn’t Watson that was a woman, it was Holmes.” So he said “what do you think about that?”
And he said the next day that my response was, “tell me more.” And so we spent 10 years writing that book. It took a long time because we were both always busy and it was very difficult to get time together. But we did. We had a lot of fun.
OR: Is Flavia coming to the screen anytime soon?
AB: Yes! A couple of years ago… it was optioned by a couple of very good producers. They were the people who did the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society, and, and did a very, very good job of that. And so they’ve been working very hard in the background of, to to bring that to the screen. And as it turned out, fortunately for me and all of us, was that by waiting, they, they got such a wonderful cast that it’s an absolute dream. It was worth waiting for. They have Martin Freeman for one. I’m really looking forward to that. It’s been a long time coming.
OR: That’s thrilling.
